‘Turai, Not KKK Mafia Influencing Yar’Adua’

Dr. Junaid Mohammed

—Dr. Junaid Mohammed
By Suleiman Anyalewechi, Kano
The country has just celebrated 10 years of uninterrupted democracy. In your own estimation, do you think the occasion was worth celebrating?
I think this question would have best been directed to those who believe there is democracy in the first place, and that there is something to celebrate. For me, I have never believed that democracy is to be celebrated. If dividend of democracy had actually existed, then it is supposed to be enjoyed by the people of the country. In their daily lives; at least in terms of the way they go about their daily business, in the level of economic development in the country, in terms of the respect of the country in the international community and as well as the way the political class relate to themselves in terms of patriotism
I want to take one point which in political science attests to the maturity or otherwise of a democratic experiment in any given society. And that factor is defined in terms of when a democracy is matured enough to allow for a peaceful transition of government from one actor or a set of actors to another actor and or set of actors. Not only is this factor seen as one of the major indices of the maturity of a democratic dispensation, it is also an indication of the stability of the system. But unfortunately, the transition from Obasanjo to Yar’Adua does not have this factor in it contrary to what some political opportunists want us to believe. In fact, that political theory states that “a system becomes matured when different set of actors, and different set of elites, under a different platform, come to power without violence or intimidation. That did not happen in Nigeria in 2007. And Obasanjo picking a puppet by the name Yar’Adua, and handing over power to him can never be described as a transition. What happened in Ghana was a transition, what happened in South Africa was a true transition, because people who were in the ANC who did not like the idea of a Zuma presidency left the ANC for other political parties. So the ANC led by Zuma is a different kettle of fish from the ANC led by Thambo Mbeki. That was a true transition as envisaged by the political theory enunciated by Robert Doyle. And I want to tell you that we have never had such a true transition in Nigeria as happened in Ghana and South Africa and I don’t think we are going to have such even in the next ten years in view of the way we are going.
Some have argued that if at all there is any thing called democracy day in Nigeria, it should be June 12 and not May 29. What is your reaction to this?
What do you want me to say? In fact, what is so special about June 12? There was an election on June 12, which frankly speaking compared with the one under Obasanjo was fairly descent. The essence of June 12 was that at least it gave the first indication that Nigerians were ready to come out of their tribal and religions nest and vote for a person based on merit. The people rejected Bashir Tofa in his home state of Kano , as well as his local government and instead voted for Abiola. And this was the case in most part of the country. That was important. But that alone does not make a democracy. As far as I am concerned, June 12 was and still remains a historical date. And my position is that June 12 is like any other date in the history of the country and anybody can choose a date and celebrate whatever he wants to celebrate. I don’t want us to go into this game of deceiving the people. I want us to address the true essence of democracy. A date alone doesn’t mean anything. We had independence in 1960. And since then are we truly independent politically and economically? Those who are hooked by the drama of June 12, especially my friends in the West, I don’t know whether they are being scientific or empirical in their evaluation of June 12. visa-vis the struggle for democracy in the country. If they want to do that, they could have chosen January 1 and October 1. But the ideal that we must set aside June 12 or whatever is something dangerous and stupid. It does not add anything to the struggle for democracy as we now know.
But from your own estimation, what do you think are the impact of June 12 on our democracy today?
None: No impact as far as I am concerned. In fact, if we are to be rational and historical, I would say that but for June 12, Obasanjo would not have been the president of Nigeria . And as far as I am concerned, any thing that could have deprived Obasanjo the presidency of Nigeria would have been very positive for Nigeria . But because of June 12, Obasanjo had to be president; and the consequences of his presidency are now hunting the country. As far as I am concerned; if you look at it, objectively and historically you would understand that June 12 is a very negative development. But if the outcome of that election, had been allowed to hold or stand, the true owner, the man who won the election, would have been the president and exercise the mandate, and would have been able, perhaps, to go and govern, and subject his own system and ideas and philosophies of governance to ratification come four years after June 12. That did not happen. What happened was that people used that sympathy, the tribal sympathy and anger, to subdue the principles of democracy and hand picked somebody, who came and exercised powers in a very perverse manner. Abused office, and unleashed corruption on the country, terrorised the people and turned out to be very big monster. And the consequences of his tenure are being lived with by Nigerians. So as far as I am concerned, and in the light of history, June 12 was very negative development and does not deserved to be celebrated by any patriotic and reasonable Nigerian.
The Yar’Adua administration has just clocked two years ain office, how would you access the regime in terms of its proclaimed Seven-Point Agenda?  
Well, first and foremost, my upbringing as a politician taught me to evaluate a person, from what he says during campaign and a party from its manifestoes and what it says, it would do when it gets into power. The Seven Point Agenda of President Umar Musa Yar’Adua was not enunciated until after he was imposed on the PDP as a candidate, and after he was rigged into the presidency by Obasanjo and all the anti-democratic forces in the PDP and in the country. It was after then that the so called seven point agenda was enunciated. Now if you ask me to write something on the Seven Point Agenda; I don’t think I would be able to do much, because I don’t believe in it. I believe it is nothing but a very cynical propaganda effort belatedly to give relevance and credence to what is generally seen as an incredible system; by a man who has been clearly overwhelmed by the powers of the presidency of a country of about 150 million people. And if you want to access the seven point agenda or whatever it is, you know the true situation. First, I understand power generation is part of it; from the time I was born and till this time, I am in my 60th year, I have never seen Nigeria in such a useless and hopeless situation as regards power generation as it is today. If food was included, I have also never seen Nigerians in such a desperate situation as regards food supply. If security is part of the Seven Point Agenda, then I have never seen Nigeria as hopelessly insecure as it now. So name it, and you would discover that there is no improvement whatsoever since this government came into power; I don’t think megawatts of power has been added to the national grid. The fuel supply situation is even more scandalous with people folding their arms watching in despair. So what are you telling me about Seven Point Agenda? I think it would have been more appropriate for you to ask those who put together the Seven Point Agenda to explain their achievements so far. Asking me to access the Seven Point Agenda for me is unfair because I don’t believe in it.
Some people, including the newly-appointed Governor of Central Bank of Nigeria have argued that it would be better to prune down the seven-Point Agenda to about two. What is your position on that?
Well, I think the young man, that is the CBN Governor is sensible enough. First, he is a distinguished economist, from a well respected family background, being the grand son of a former Emir of Kano as well as an in-law of the Emir of Kano. So I can say he has a sound idea of good governance and what would make good governance as a whole. And above all, he is not swollen headed the way Yar’Adua and some of his aides are. What I am saying in essence is that in life, you must prioritise your goals. There must be priorities in what you do and these priorities must be detected by the resources at your disposal and the executive capacity you wield; and of course the will of the people. Are the people willing to take you as their leader and follow your footsteps and prescriptions? In all these, the Yar’Adua administration does not have the legitimacy and it is one of the dangers of imposing a leader on the people. And in such a situation, if you cannot lead, the entire system collapses. And that is exactly what is happening in the country today. This government is collapsing at the very centre, at the presidency, because there is no executive capacity. He surrounds himself with mediocres and scoundrels and people who have never done anything right in their lives. And the few good ones like the new CBN Governor. Who have a history of distinguished career behind them, who see things differently, have said look, this is not how things are done. But you can see from its comment that the government is trying to misunderstand what the young man said and or in fact get him to retract his position none of which would be useful; because if he tries to retract his statement, his credibility would be dented for good. And I can assure you, he would carry the cross till the day he departs the office as the CBN Governor. But come to think of it, what the young man is saying is simple: don’t go for everything at the same time. Try to prioritise your goals and make sure that whatever you do is done well enough. For instance, if you prioritise security, good. At least that would ensure some levels of sanity and security in the system and also ensure that people go about their normal activities freely and unmolested. And if you prioritise power then we know that, yes it is power. But look at what is happening in the power sector, billion of Naira have been siphoned by the Obasanjo’s administration and nothing has been achieved, in terms of improved power generation and distribution. And these billions are there, but Yar’Adua does not have the courage and will to recover them. In addition, other billions which are meant for rural electrification have also been siphoned, without anybody doing anything. And now the people involved are being hauled from one detention camp to another. That for me does not make much sense. Recover the money and lets move on.
And these bloody scoundrels and rascals that call themselves House of Representatives members and Senators, investigating everything you can imagine ask people to go round and collect bribes in the name of investigation and when they are caught nothing happens. Now this is the kind of moral decadence pervading governance in this country and the rest of Nigerians appear not to know where to turn to for succor.
Many Nigerians have come to the belief that not only is Yar’Adua being influenced in his decisions, especially appointments by the powers that brought him into office but also the new  emerging power brokers from the North, especially from Kaduna, Kano and Katsina states. How would you react to this?  
First and foremost, I can not speak for those who are called Northern Mafia, if indeed there was or is still what is called Northern Mafia. Secondly, I have no business with those who want to reduce national problems to a something that has no facts. Obasanjo is not a Northerner and therefore can not be a member of the so called Northern Mafia. But he was the person, who made Yar’Adua the president of Nigeria . Why the debate on the influence of the so called Northern Mafia? In fact, I found that absolutely disgusting. And if you cannot discuss, until you reduce yourself to this useless idiom which does not make sense to me, then I am not prepared to continue with this interview. Go and talk to those who speak for the North. I am never sent to speak for the North. In any case who are the members of the Mafia? The man who brought him into power is not and can never be a Northerner. So why don’t you attack Obasanjo instead of attacking the so called Northern Mafia?
In fact, I don’t know about any Northerner who has any influence on Yar’Adua in the first place. And I don’t think that even if his elder brother or father were alive today, they would been able to influence Yar’Adua. So what are we talking about? Anyway, you can go and believe what ever you want to believe and create what ever acronym you want to create. But as far as I am concerned, there is no Northerner today who has any influence on Yar’Adua, apart from his wife and those who are brought by his wife into the government. But if you want to believe in KKK and or RRR or whatever, good luck to you. That is why you people always get things wrong. For one, the Lagos media don’t do its home work well, and they always approach issues with biased mind. Yes, because, he has appointed so and so people from the North therefore these are the people influencing him. In fact, the appointments of people into the Yar’Adua’s government including that of the CBN Governor, I can tell you with a measure of certainty has nothing to do with anybody from Kano . It may interest you to know that the decision to appoint the new CBN Governor was taken in Lagos , scrutinised in Lagos and submitted in Abuja by those from Lagos and Abuja . So I don’t know how Kano comes in here or even Kaduna and Katsina.
You people don’t understand that in life there is what we called class- interest. You don’t know that in society, people tend to depend more on their class structure and interest than on their places of birth. Now I want you to tell me, what Soludo did for the national economy. As far as I am concerned, he did nothing. Look at the state of the so called mega banks; look at the interest rate in the country. It is about the highest in the world as of today. The interest rate in Nigeria is 22 percent. How can you borrow and do business in the country under such high interest rate regime?
So you are saying that Yar’Adua is being influenced more by his wife than those who brought him into power and the so-called Northern Mafia?  
Yes. Absolutely yes, the truth is that on most issues involving governance and appointments, his wife has so far been able to have her way. I know for sure, some ministers who go to Turai and not Yar’Adua himself to get what they want. Are you telling me that is not influence? This is a woman who nobody even voted for. There is no place in the constitution that recognises the office of the First Lady. Why do we then have to allow this woman to incur expenditure on behalf of the country? And let me tell you, your Soludo was very close to the First Lady and we have been hearing rumours of Diamonds and dollars exchanging hands. The same thing is the case between the Health Minister and the First Lady, so much so that the Global fund against HIV/AIDS actually wanted at a point to formally, protest to the Nigerian government against the way their funds are being handled. And I can tell you, we know and can trace those funds from the Ministry of Health to the presidency, who is fooling who? Instead of you people to face the reality, you people are busy chasing shadows in the form of imaginary mafia. What you see in this country is what you get. And what we see is a woman who is very greedy and who was not voted for by anybody exercising enormous powers at the expense of this country. And you people, instead of following her and checkmating her, exposing her activities and those of the ministers she control, you are now blaming the so called Katsina, Kaduna and Kano people. What an arrant nonsense. She is not from Kano . And so what is the business of Kano in the whole matter?
And even if you are talking about Katsina, her antecedents are from Niger Republic . Look, if you want us to address national issues, we can continue, but I don’t think I would want to continue with all these mundane issues.
But many people are complaining that most of the Yar’Adua appointments are clearly in favour of the North, leading to the conclusion in many quarters that the wholeprocess has been Northernised?
At the initial stage when Yar’Adua came into power I said I have no time for bickering as regards appointments because those who make noise about being left out are only speaking for themselves and not for their communities as they claim. And I said if Yar’Adua would govern this country and do it well, he can bring every members of his family into government if he so wishes. But if he would share the offices according to the number of local government in the country, he would still fail substantially if he doesn’t put the right people in the right place. And that is exactly what is happening today. And now if you believe you can get good governance by having these appointments done in this PDP way: share the thing; certainly you are not going to solve any of the problems of this country. So asking me to comment on the pattern of Yar’Adua appointments is a ruse. What is happening is not my idea of governance. My idea is completely different from what the PDP stands for and that is why I am not a member of the PDP. The philosophy of the PDP has always been “sharing the spoils of office” regardless of the quality of the office holders and as far as I am concerned it is not my idea of what governance should be.
But having said that, look at the way the appointment at the Ministry of Finance was made. Yar’Adua did not consider those who are better qualified in the ministry, even from his own backyard, Katsina state. He simply went and picked somebody he met while in secondary school in Keffi and made him the Minister of Finance. The man came to be an economist overnight. He was my contemporary and I am aware he failed his papers at Kings College and so could not become a Mechanical Engineer as he had earlier wanted to be. It was after then he went to read Accountancy in the School of Accountancy in Slough London. Now if this is the kind of people you would say are representing Kano , then go ahead and be saying so. But for sure, I know that they are not representing anybody. Recently the former Minister of Finance, who is now Minister for National Planning, was stoned in his area, Elmaishinkafi in Kano , with the windscreen of his vehicle completely smashed. Now for you to tell me that kind of people are representing Kano is the biggest joke of the year. And now the other young man had to be picked, because Yar’Adua realised, he had made a mistake by appointing the wrong person for the wrong job and who was always involved in the maneuvering for succession.
Instead of putting the blame were it is, you are busy talking about Kaduna , Kano Katsina Mafia. That is shear nonsense. Now in the appointment of the Central Bank Governor which is unfortunate, because of all the appointments, the one that is merited is the appointment of Sanusi Lamido Sanusi. In fact, if this is how the Nigerian media behave, then we are in serious trouble, because, some of the writings on this matter have been completely irrational. Look at the qualifications of the CBN Governor. Does he merit the appointment or not? When Soludo was picked as the CBN Governor, he was not subjected to all the scrutiny the Lagos media and some of these Senators subjected Sanusi Lamido. Why should he be treated that way? Anyway, the young man had gone to the so called Senators. I don’t want to comment on some of the irresponsible questions some of them asked him, because the questions came from those who should know better.
In the light of the opinion of many Nigerians that the Yar’Adua regime has not really met the expectations of Nigerians, some of his aides have started talking about a second term for him. How do you react to this development?
Put properly; the Yar’Adua’s administration has failed woefully. Well. In the first place, did Yar’Adua have right to seek a first term? Answer my question, so that I would know whether to the respond to question or not?
Do you support the current military crackdown on the militants in the region?
I am whole heartedly in support of the move to flush out these terrorists from the Niger Delta. I support it because, first and foremost, there has to be peace before there is development. I know for sure that there have never been true elections in Niger Delta from 1999 to date. So nobody in the Niger Delta can tell me that that he is running a legitimate administration. That is why many elites, governors, ministers and so on are completely implicated in the oil bunkering and terrorism going on in the region. And when it suits them they are prepared to wind and programme some of these gangs of youths against themselves. There has always been mayhem. And until we have peace in the area, we are not going to begin to talk about the development of the Niger Delta. And they have had billions and trillions of Naira which they must account for. The idea that anybody can take money in this country without accounting for it is simply nonsense. This government and country can not afford that because if they are given money and they feel because they come from a part of the Niger Delta and therefore can not account for the money, we would not accept that.
The soldiers who are fighting the so called militants in the Niger Delta are also Nigerians who are entitled to life, liberty and individual dignity. You don’t expect the military to fold its arms and watch, if its men and officers are ambushed and killed. It is sheer nonsense and I know that would not happen.
You believe that part of the problems of the Niger Delta is corruption among the elites of the region. In the light of this, how would you rate the anti-corruption war of the Yar’Adua regime?
The fight against corruption by the Yar’Adua administration is a continuation of the style of Obasanjo’s fight against corruption. That is those who are personal enemies, if they are corrupt they are criminals. But those who are your favourites and blue eyes boys, if they are corrupt let them go ahead and enjoy their loot. That is it. And that seems to be the guiding principle. Whatever corrupt act which this government has prosecuted it involves those it wants to harass and intimidate or to cow into submission. This is certainly not the way to genuinely fight corruption. The only way to fight against corruption is to ensure that the rule of law is supreme and that is nobody is above it. Several former governors have been arrested by the EFCC and taken to the law courts, with several charges against them. But unfortunately, none of these has been successfully prosecuted and or made to return the several billions of Naira allegedly stolen. So who is fooling who? What fight are you then talking about when all the known corrupt former and serving public officers are working free on the street? And let me tall you, the idea that somebody who stole billions should be fined a few millions as Obasanjo did and Yar’Adua is still doing is an insult to this country. Look, as far as I know, there is no intention to fight corruption on the part of Yar’Adua’s regime. So talking about the war against corruption, in my view is misleading. When they are prepared to fight corruption in this country, then you can come and  we discuss. Please don’t waste my time.